pt. 1 ch. 12 - Page 17
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MistakeNPotatoes
19th Dec 2018, 11:30 AM

D'aww, how cute.

Well guys, the holiday times are upon us. The new job has decided they want to cross train me on a few things before I settle into a schedule so my sleep and work hours are in flux - it's really hard for me to sit down and get anything done at the moment. I might need to take the next week off, if you all don't mind, give myself some time to rebuild my buffer and try and find some kind of normalcy in my work/life/comic-work balance. I'm still going to be trying to get stuff done, no worries there.

Have a great week, I hope for the rest of you this time of year is not quite so stressful :)

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Mgnostic
19th Dec 2018, 11:43 AM

Do what you gotta do to keep food on the table.

I don't think fan fic was a thing back in the 20's but I can totally see Clara going goggle-eyed over "Courtship Rituals of the Deep Ones".

It has been observed by others but the depth of the character interactions is one of the things that makes this comic stand out above the somebody interfere with the Elder Gods and Earth is saved for another day stories.

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MadJak91
19th Dec 2018, 12:16 PM

"I don't think fan fic was a thing back in the 20's but I can totally see Clara going goggle-eyed over "Courtship Rituals of the Deep Ones"."
LMAO :D
tbh, I often ponder if the relation works the other way around as well because quite a few even ancient stories were... weird. Depends on the culture or place of origin and I guess how much you trust their retelling was not altered towards that direction... :D

But seriously. Could that even be a thing? The Deep Ones need to come from somewhere but since they are converted humans that is alright. What then though? I guess I do not know how they live when they are fully changed.
The way I get it is that both fishbros here still have a pretty intact human side since they are a few stages before both change to a Deep One completely and therefore still express this sort of need?

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MistakeNPotatoes
19th Dec 2018, 1:35 PM

@Mgnostic:

I'm doing my best! I just wish it didn't interfere with comic stuff so much.

I love the idea of Clara being into "boy's love" fanfic, though.. Otaku Clara could have happened in a different life, I suppose :')

I hope I get to maintain that aspect and keep it at a good balance as the plot marches towards its finish. Stakes are going to get higher, and my hope is that the years people have had to get used to these characters will make it impactful.

@Madjak:

I'm not really sure how deep one life goes. That's sort of the idea, and Hugh is as mystified and afraid of it as we are. That said, they do breed, so there's some sort of biological imperative there. Dolphins, octopi and other sea creatures show personality and intelligence, so I assume that Deep Ones must be similar if they're able to make jewelry and bargains with land-folk.

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Mgnostic
19th Dec 2018, 1:48 PM

Sure, it can totally be a thing. On one level it is a thing because MP needs it to be to move the story he is telling.Luckily Disney can't buy up the rights to the Lovecraftian Mythos and make every one stick to a defined cannon. Most of the stories I have read involving Deep One hybrids as characters deal with the change from human to hybrid and the acceptance thereof. The topic of deep one relationships is a wide field with lots of room to play. Assuming that affection is a thing among the Deep Ones, their longevity would remove a lot of pressure for reproduction, leaving room for a variety of relationships.

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MistakeNPotatoes
19th Dec 2018, 4:42 PM

You're touching on a lot of points I agree with here. Understanding this, the characters they apply to, and that these 'monsters' are very much people in this story, all of these things are directly related to one of the big themes I'm getting at with this tale. I'm just trying to put it in a story that's entertaining on its own.

I worry about this constantly :')

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MadJak91
21st Dec 2018, 12:09 PM

I will venture a guess that a relationship can directly help with that acceptance. If that is what you are getting at as well. Although it does not need to be necessarily romantic.
There are the fishmen who seclude themselves later and hardly come to terms with their transformation as all other brothers and sisters turn away. Not to mention humans who do not even know since the process forces you into cloaking yourself.

The final form in inevitable and from then on you are going underwater to completely different community, right? Logically it is better if you can spend your last human moments like this and then have someone immediately there with you.

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Jordan Bassior
22nd Dec 2018, 11:26 AM

Personal relationships among Deep Ones, hybrids and humans are absolutely canon, going all the way back to "The Shadow Over Innsmouth." It is no accident that Robert Olmstead is visited in dream by his grandmother and his great-great-grandmother (a hybrid become Deep One and a full Deep One, respectively), rather than any other emissaries. The very existence of hybrids requires that humans and Deep Ones have sex: you can't convince me that there is never any positive affect involved on either side! In "The Fisherman of Falcon Point" the titular character behaves affectionately (or lustfully, but it looks more like courtship to me) to the Deep One he snares and then spares (in the classic selkie-wife tradition), who later honors her word to him and transforms him into a healthy Deep One when he becomes crippled. (We don't know if SHE feels any romantic attraction to HIM, but the good treatment he then receives from her kind would imply that she at least LIKED him).

So yes. I would say that at least personal relationships among the Deep Ones, and between the Deep Ones and hybrids or humans, is canon, dating back to Mythos stories from the 1930's to 1950's.

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Jordan Bassior
22nd Dec 2018, 11:12 AM

Fanfic is older than you think. Unauthorized sequels to literary works were common in the 19th century, and probably in the early 20th century as well. (It fell out of fashion a bit in the mid 20th as copyrights were extended and copyright law regularized).

Earlier than that, before the explosion in fiction writing that began in the 18th century, it was once extremely common for new fiction to base itself on older works; for instance, throughout the Renaissance and Baroque eras MOST fiction was based either on Biblical or Classical mythology. Both Biblical and Classical mythology themselves established their canons in this manner as well.

Fanfic is as old as firelight tales.

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MadJak91
23rd Dec 2018, 2:31 PM

>>Deep Ones
I do not have anything to add or ask but thanks for the explanation. That makes it clearer! :D

>>Fanfics
Yep. That is what I meant as well. I guess the main point is how we see fanfiction and what the word actually means now and meant back then. Back when it was technically fanfiction but not called that. I do not know how old the term is but I would say as old as some major modern fandom like Star Trek or Star Wars. Before that... dunno. Such work probably had no special name in the past.

What I am getting at is that fanfiction usually carries certain meanings with itself whether you agree or disagree or whatever you think it damages such writings or not. Either sexual/shippy in nature or outright "Eff this! I am pissed at some part in the canon and now everything is going to be like this! And this character dies horribly because eff them!"
While there is plenty of "normal" fanfiction, those in my opinion are what people usually mean. The lulz, haha.

Uh... My point is that still when you look at some old stories, even ancient ones, many of them were quiet... you know. So it is not like it is exclusive but modern times are modern times and certain terms carry certain traits whether we want them to or not.

But I was never much around such stuff so... no idea. Opinions might be influenced by what was usually shared to me as "LOOK AT THIS HILARIOUS STUFF!" Haha :D

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Kev
19th Dec 2018, 3:40 PM

They are TOO cute! I am loving this. <3

Happy Holidays!

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MistakeNPotatoes
19th Dec 2018, 4:36 PM

Oh gosh - there must have been a delay when you tried to post this :')

I'm glad you think so; I thought you might!

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Kev
20th Dec 2018, 11:16 AM

I had to post the same things multiple times. Did my comment go through a lot or something? LOL I'm computer illiterate. :P
Sorry. But yes! I'm loving these pages with these two.

You could do a gag a day spin off with them as an old married couple. (only semi kidding)

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MistakeNPotatoes
20th Dec 2018, 3:58 PM

It went through about 9 times actually :') don't worry! I cleaned it up!

Good to hear this is resonating though. The gag comic sounds nice :) We'll see, after this story is over..

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Jordan Bassior
20th Dec 2018, 4:03 AM

This makes a lot of sense if we assume Chaosium's interpretation of the Deep Ones.

In the Chaosium model, any community of full adult Deep Ones (those who have completely morphed into their seagoing forms) is bound together by subliminal telepathy into a sort of mass-mind. Each individual Deep One has their own personality, but receives a constant feed of information from the mass-mind.


Because the Deep Ones are emmortal, they could easily overbreed any conceivable territory, did they not control their populations. The mass-mind is aware of current production and consumption loads, and makes females aware of the current capacity for new births.

Each female judges her own offspring for survival fitness, usually at birth. If the offspring is insufficiently fit for its continued life to be justified given the current population, the female feels a compulsion to kill her child.

The males do not have a say in this, and consequently there is a natural conflict between the desires of the males and females regarding their offspring. This, coupled with the rather cold and ponderous nature of full adult Deep Ones (by full human standards), makes long-term affectionate hetrosexual relationships between Deep Ones less common than is the case among full humans.

Thus -- as is the case among many higher species in which this situation exists -- it would make perfect sense if the Deep Ones had a greater tendency toward homosexual affect, both among males and females, than is the case among full humans. (This means a higher percentage of Deep Ones than humans would be either bisexual or homosexual).

We do not know, but presumably in a situation of birth DEARTH, the mass-mind would increase the sexual desire of the males to encourage more rapid reproduction.

What do you think of this theory?

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MistakeNPotatoes
20th Dec 2018, 4:06 PM

Oh wow - I didn't realize how in-depth Chaosium got with it. I mean, obviously none of this came into consideration for me, but I do see how it would be appropriate in this scenario, yes :)

As for this comic, as I was writing these characters, it just naturally came about that Hugh and Marco were a couple. It just happened organically, and for me there's no real 'justification' needed, as homosexuality occurs in nature. I've always considered the Deep Ones to be an 'earth based' creature of the mythos, possibly created long ago by the Elder Things. Who knows? They're far less alien than other creatures, especially hybrids, so they're a little easier to correlate with how nature works in our world :)

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Jordan Bassior
21st Dec 2018, 1:20 AM

My main Chaosium sourcebook is ESCAPE FROM INNSMOUTH, which I suspect you've at least seen at some time. It's an excellent work, faithful to the original novella "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" (and the map Lovecraft drew in his own notes for the story), which details numerous important characters and locations.

We know that the Deep Ones are emmortal (undying save by mischance or violence) and telepathic from "The Shadow Over Innsmouth." The Chaosium source describes them as intelligent, but rather slow and ponderous thinkers, which makes sense for emmortal beings who have created a complex but rather conservative civilization (which is after all a LITERAL theocracy). It also describes them as emotionally rather cold compared to humans, and goes so far as to claim that they do not know long-term romantic love (which I wouldn't agree with, but I would agree that it was probably less common among them).

I would also argue that they are probably rather honorable beings. I would consider this likely of emmortals in general (because if you live potentially forever you would be very concerned with your reputation), and in regards to the Deep Ones in particular I notice that in "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" they make and KEEP bargains, something they also noticeably do in August Derleth's "The Fisherman of Falcon Point."

The Deep One sense of honor is often overlooked by writers who want to make them disposable and interchangeable Always Chaotic Evil Mooks, because it implies that they aren't just monsters. Lovecraft, and Derleth, knew better.

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Jordan Bassior
21st Dec 2018, 1:44 AM

It was from ESCAPE FROM INNSMOUTH that I got the idea of the Deep One females regulating their population by culling, and this creating a conflict of interests between the Deep One females and males -- this being one reason why the Deep One males tend to be more aggressive in terms of territorial expansion AND more interested in exogamy than the Deep One females. A Deep One male knows that Human females are less likely to cull his offspring than are Deep One females.

ESCAPE FROM INNSMOUTH also presented the idea that many aspects of ordinary Deep One life in their submarine cities were mediated through telepathy, which ensured that each Deep One knew what to do even though there was both little formal government and only intermittent trade or donation between Deep Ones. Thus, the Deep Ones could be very individualistic, even at times solitary, while still being able to cooperate in running an economy and other large-scale endeavors.

It was I who had the idea that this was a massmind or hive mind generated as an emergent property of large numbers of telepathic Deep Ones, and that this was what the female Deep Ones were using to decide when to cull their offspring or let them live. This makes a lot of sense, especially because Chaosium described this as a sort of compulsion or obsession as experienced by the females.

This also nicely resolves the obvious evolutionary problem with the culling. The interests of the individual female Deep One would be served by letting all her offspring (save for clearly defective ones) live; this over numerous generations would result in the selfish lineages taking over and the altruistic ones being outcompeted.

But if they are following the will of a massmind which by its nature is generated by the community as a whole, this problem is solved.

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Guest
21st Dec 2018, 1:49 AM

I doubt Hugh's happiness will last long, though. He and Marco ARE on the wrong side of a cosmic war, and we know that their particular community -- both Innsmouth and Y'ha-nthlei -- are going to suffer serious losses in 1928. Innsmouth, of course, much more so than Y'ha-nthlei; Innsmouth is taken in house-to-house fighting and its population captured, while Y'ha-nthlei only gets bombarded from above (and is explicitly "hurt, but not destroyed" according to Lovecraft).

Really and truly, I hope that Hugh and Marco take to the sea soon and swim far, far away. Except that I know this isn't likely. Hugh in particular is a natural hero. He'd never leave his kin in the lurch.

Sigh.

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MadJak91
21st Dec 2018, 12:13 PM

I guess the question is WHO is going to survive this anyway. If they are going to survive then probably damages for life. This is a grim lore and therefore everyone is going to get it in some form. My opinion. Hm.

"He and Marco ARE on the wrong side of a cosmic war"
Who is the right side though? Humans? Yeah. The way monsters work looks clearly worse. It is hard to compare Jack to Chase but ultimately even Chase has his mini-Nyarl forcing him into playing this game. At least I do not think Chase could say: "Nah. Thanks. I am not interested in more." at that point.

Everyone is screwed!

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Synzin
20th Dec 2018, 8:12 AM

This is adorable. If only all these people weren't being manipulated into a war by gods.

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Jordan Bassior
20th Dec 2018, 3:31 PM

I think this is true not only of these particular hybrids, but of the Deep Ones in general. They're not inherently monsters: they're just on the wrong side of a cosmic war.

That is the really great thing about this webcomic. It GETS that point.

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Cyrus Hollowhurst
27th Dec 2018, 1:00 PM

Cuteness Overload

This is just too sweet! I can heardly wait to see more of them.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

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MistakeNPotatoes
27th Dec 2018, 5:23 PM

Heh heh, Marco has a sweet side to him, it turns out. Even if it's a little scuffed and grimy.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you, as well :)

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